Not too many of us Yard Swillers around today, that's for sure. But the Bounders and Football Enthusiasts will always be with us....
The good news is that in 2022 it's MUCH easier to legally uncouple than it was in 1919. In 1919 Wales (which is where this piece dates from), a divorce was only available through an individual act of parliament, which meant that your marriage -- and possible divorce -- would be publicly debated in the House Of Commons. (And only the *extremely* wealthy would have the money to bring this about. And the laws, of course, favoured the men....)
While some of the advice still rings true (I'm looking at *you*, Tailor's Dummies), at least marriage isn't the inescapable legally-binding death-is-the-only-way-out lifetime commitment it was 100 years ago. But then as now, of course, the trick is to FIND a Window Cleaning Coal-Getter in the first place....
Kal! Our meteor! Streeeeeeeeakkkkkkking across our Conflabbian sky like the brightest and gleamingest heavenly body, trailing your tail of laughter and light, and this time, YOU HAVE STREAKED like a dream!!
I feel compelled to write because I have married three times. For me, third time was the charm. Here is the advice I would have given my younger self about men:
1. If they have a temper (even if not directed at you)--run. Men that yell and get really angry are frustrated with themselves and can't articulate what they are feeling so they yell. You may think it's not directed at you (it's only the waiter, the tangled xmas lights, blah blah) but it will be.
2. If they are crazy jealous-- do NOT think it's a compliment. It's because they are so insecure with themselves. And they hate themselves for it-- so they will take it out on you. Run
3. If they don't have at least as strong a work ethic as you-- run. Once again, they will resent you because you make them look lazy. And somehow they think they are getting back at you by being REALLY lazy.
4. If you catch them lying-- call it out immediately the first time. If they do not immediately fess up and have a good explanation (other than a surprise vacay or birthday present, there are no good reasons) Run. I cannot stress this enough.
5. Know thyself. Are you marrying someone because of unfinished family business? Figure out that baggage now!
6. Read-- codependent no more.
7. Read-- if you're in my office it's already too late (by a divorce lawyer).
It took me 2 terrible divorces, then therapy, and reading a lot of books to get to where I am now. I am married to a wonderful, loving partner. If I had followed the above advice (read those two books!) I would not have needed to go thru the 2 divorces that drained all my savings.
Your 1. point, the anger issue, is what I missed. The first time I became aware of it was when he got angry at his domino partner and sent the table with the dominoes clattering on the tile floor. I thought he was going to hit the man. I burst into tears when I witnessed it. I was 20 and highly pregnant. It took me 15 more years to utter the D word, and that’s when the violence was directed against me as I knew it would be. But I got out. Twenty years after my divorce, I broke down and, at 56, married my present husband. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary. I don’t want to imagine my life without him.
I always seem to confuse Violent Outbursts with “Passion”. I love being married but I do, genuinely, wish I could simultaneously have a handful more husbands.
Right? Just a handful, Daria---three or four husbands.....one to cook, one to run errands, one to take care of the kids, one to walk the dogs, one to earn the money, one to give you backrubs!!
GIRLFRIEND! I do a podcast! There are about 30 free episodes @radiofreedaria, then I have tons at www.patreon.com/radiofreedaria (I’m cheap, like 5 bucks I think)
I guess because: frankly, I believe every woman DESERVES multiple husbands. That just flat out makes more sense to me that history’s usual polygamy. Also, I think it’s unfair to expect one person to be our Be-All. I love my Real Husband. But I’d also like a handyman husband, one that loves going to plays and reading books, one that is a 9 to 5 type A, etc. And although I currently, truly, have no complaints in the sex department…I would not mind having sex with all of them. Submissive with one, goofy with another, etc.
Not that the conflab needs a man’s opinion, but hell no, you don’t need a husband.
Just find someone who makes you laugh, makes you think, helps around the living space you are co-habituating in, who likes to do the horizontal rumba (Yes, I’m trying to be PG here, you gutter minded FREAKS..LOL), and is a contributing partner in everything.
Someone you can dress up to take to Broadway, or dress down to get BBQ and beer. Someone who knows the rare times when it’s ok to use their outside voice inside. Someone who wants to be the spoon or the spoonee. Who can be the rock to build the foundation on, and be the roll with it because that is how the chaos of a post TFG 21st century seems to be going.
Most of all, be your own bestie. Men suck. We are good at a few things, and look nice in a tailored three piece suit, but in general, most of us suck the chrome off a trailer hitch.
Sorry to be so serious, conflab! If he can’t make you laugh, he’s a one night stand.
Thé concept is outdated but I went for it and married the guy anyway. We don’t plan on having kids and are both educated and make our own moola, so there’s no reason to get hitched but here we are. I would do it again, even after 15 years of ups and downs. He’s smart, kind, giving, patient, funny, faithful, and most importantly, he loves the hell out of me. And he still has a magnificent head of hair and abs, but now I’m just bragging. Truly one of the only people I can be my absolute self with and I’m still physically attracted to him after all these years. So if you can find one like mine, I say go for it. Otherwise? Who needs ‘em?
I have cats and much prefer them to lying cheating and disrespectful men. At my age most men are looking from what someone said “ either a nurse or a purse”. I would provide neither being a single woman who supports herself and paid for many years of formal education.
Love this topic! Married at 21 and my husband was a great father, lover and companion. He turned to alcohol to deal with the stresses of life! Changed his personality became a brute, lazy and an asshole. I left and have never found one worthy. I decided long ago that there are few men worth the sacrifice of being married. Marriage is highly overrated. The only benefit is two wonderful children now adults.
My husband and I both have our faults, but we bear witness to each other’s lives in a way that I find very nice. We are self-aware of our flaws to a degree that we both think we got the better deal in the marriage. Even though my marriage has worked out (well, for the last 18 years; who knows what’s ahead), my advice is buyer beware.
Okay, to start, I'm assuming when we're talking about husbands we're talking about cismen or transmen to whom we are legally married. I had one of those for 10 years, with three and a half years of mostly cohabitating before that, and I will say NOPE, don't need another one of them. Perhaps the whole heterosexual nuclear family model made some kind of sense on a theoretical level to aid the raising of small children and the collective purchasing of property, but, for me anyway, it was an incredibly stressful, ill-fitting suit that was hell to get out of and I never want to try and squeeze into again.
Also, we were totally trauma-bonded, which combined with the fact that he's a narcissistic prick, doomed the whole enterprise from the start. When I think of his current wife these days I just think, Good luck with that, sister. Feh.
At this point in my life I own my own house (with considerable assistance on the front end from my parents, to be sure) and my children are grown, so what ever would be the point? I will not ever combine finances with someone again, I don't want to cohabitate, and I need no help raising my children. I don't need a husband to have love or great sex or companionship, which is a great comfort to me. Thank you, Second Wave Feminism!
Now, I do have a dear friend who has been with her now-husband for nearly 30 years. They decided to get legally married about 10 years ago simply because they do own property together and we are all getting older and they didn't want there to be any confusion about having access to each other in the hospital or whichever of them dies first what would happen to their collective assets. This makes a lot of practical sense, I'll admit. If my current companion and I stay together for the long haul I could see making a similar decision eventually, but we'll still always live separately and keep separate finances. Not only will that preserve my sanity, it will strike that balance between independence and intimacy that protects desire, and desire is most of why I want to be in a long-term commitment anyway. For me, sex is better with someone deeply known.
I remember watching an interview with Dixie Carter years ago, who got married for the first time in her forties to Hal Holbrook (handsome devil). When asked why she chose to wait so long to get married she responded, "It takes a damn good man to beat no man at all." I have never forgotten that, and swear by it as a general rule. Still, I don't think legal marriage is a prerequisite to having a damn good man, and based on my own experience, would not recommend it.
Well, he'll be in there, that's for sure. That being my ex-husband. And all of his inane, romantic fantasies. The new companion will likely also feature-- in all his delightful, kinky glory, because goddamn if he doesn't make for good copy. :)
I ordered groceries today, and I’m sitting here waiting for the delivery with Fitbit as I suddenly realize that the item that caused me to order more groceries was the one thing I forgot to put on the list: 🧻 TP.
I LOVE banana cream pie, and I am so pleased you do as well! I will save the most biggest-hugest slice for you, but you'd better beat my granddaughter Jacq arriving soon from her home in Denmark. She saw my message online and bought tickets to visit immediately!
Oh HELL NO! Not now, not ever, not even for a billion bucks.
I came damn close - after torturing myself for 8 long years with a man who not only couldn't keep his equipment in his pants - but then three months before out wedding announced he had been sleeping with a man and couldn't give him up.
Since then, I have never been tempted. With the very rare exception, men are exactly as the opening to your post stated, "lazy, selfish, thoughtless, lying, drunken, clumsy, heavy-footed, rough, brutes..." To be fair, that's how most are raised and then systematically taught to behave in school. Plus, most are ruled by their sex drive, which prompts them to do all sorts of unkind, selfish, stupid, and abusive things. So no.
I have, of course, been pleasantly surprised by the tales told by my fellow Conflabbians, including the men. Kal, you give me hope ;-) But what continues to astound me is why so many women still fall for the Other BIG Lie - i.e. that they can and should fine a prince charming and live happily every after - and its related falsehood - that they have to look and behave a particular way to land one.
First of all, most happily ever after scenarios involve childbirth - which is not only unpleasant but can kill you - and second, marriage still involves financial commitments that are not always easy to break.
So sorry Auntie E. I know that this obsession with obtaining husbands gives advice columnists plenty of work but I'm not going there. HUGS!
Yes he was a piece of work. The sad thing looking back was he had me convinced there was something wrong with me. I had plenty of things I needed to heal, but not wanting him to screw around and to devote quality time to me wasn’t one of them.
It seems to me that almost every woman( very strong wonderful smart women such as yourself) has a story line in their life which includes a flaming damaging asshole men with narcisstic or sociopathic tendencies that have tried to attempt to continually gaslight and control us. God knows I had my share of them. I am very sorry you went through that horror show. The damage is cumulative. Narcissists love empathic souls such as yours. We must protect ourselves from these vampires.
I'm uncertain if my experience is of value, since I'm fairly sure we're weird. My husband & I met in high school & got married at 18. We did everything wrong according to an article I read on '5 Main Reason Why Marriages Don't Work': 1) Married too young; 2) Different ethnic backgrounds (he's Mexican, I'm Norwegian); 3) Different religions (he was raised Catholic, I became an atheist at age 14); 4) having kids too soon (our daughter was born after 8.5 months); & 5) Financial issues (boy, did we have 'em). We made it regardless & celebrated 60 years in January. We made it because we're partners, we have each others' backs, & - what's most important - we make sure, when we have problems, we both are in a space where we can listen to the other & truly understand what is being said. It's okay to tell each other we can't talk right now since we are united in trying to resolve our issues. Neither gets hurt or huffy, if we need to wait for the right time, because we know there are times when we just can't resolve issues, where solutions aren't likely, & we're fine with that. But we also know some problems don't age well, so we plan on when we"ll 'fix' it. That we still love each other, that there's still lust, & joy, & kindness towards each other are facts. We are very lucky people. I, for one, do need my husband & (it may seem unnatural), I love my spouse more that my children. Like I wrote, we're weird.
Coming from you, that's a huge compliment, thank you. I think we mostly learned that a good marriage is based on commitment to like, to love & to listen, & don't let the small stuff get in the way.
Trained from birth in the deep south to be chaste and coy, and to find and marry the perfect husband, at age 18, that’s exactly what I did. ~Except pobody's nerfect! Im not, and neither is my husband! … AND… that very system of social conditioning is causing unspeakable amounts of depression, repression, and stunted human growth! …why should everything rely on one person? It took me twenty five years to swallow that, and I am still choking on it! -- - Even though I do LOVE my person! It is still pervasive; just kinda baked in to the hot air and home cookin’ we all eat and breathe…
As a young girl, in an ultraconservative patriarical household, My virginity and my value were intertwined, and so was my reputation to that of my mother and sister...brother and father... Unlike the gals in my hometown whom married their high school sweetheart, I got my "MRS degree," and I married my college love. Today, I am 48 and Its been 30 years since our first date... John is pretty close to an ideal partner... he still tells great jokes, makes great paintings, a great lasagne and he still knows how to romance. But, at age 43, I was feeling a few lumpy grudges (why didn’t I have that second kid?) and some big mid life regret at never having "played the field" .... but why?? ...I had a husband I adored, a darling daughter, career, a home and a dog, and all that ... but still it was a naggin' me.... I didnt have the guts or the will to leave all that, fer naught...to turn over the apple cart my darling prize red delicious baby daughter apple was bein’ raised in,…so I decided to just stay in the shoes I was wearin’… But I still went offa the path, and then offa the deep end, and I had an affair.. and.. gulp...I fell in love again.... It was wonderful and terrible... like drowning and flying at the same time.. It was not a mid life crisis as much as it was a mid life awakening. I discovered... Yes, I could love w two people at the same time...It was wild and wronge. I betrayed my spouse and my family, but I felt so alive and the passion was addictive... Eventually, The other man wanted me all to himself, and couldn't stand it, so he left me heart broken. It was my first time having a broken heart. I finally told my husband, and we slowly glued back the chipped vase of our love back together…and we have our darling daughter rose blooming inside of it… and our 30 plus years history together… a lifetime of inside jokes, and life experience…and we look forward to 30 more... but I still miss my love affair partner… however, I love my husband more. Because those high fires of passion I felt with that man couldn’t hold a candle to the long burning flame of creativity and companionship and family I share w John… Do I regret the love affair? No… I cant. It was one of the most pivotal memorable experiences of my life that I will never forget… I still think about him all the time… But I never wanna hurt my husband like that again… Now, I am in the throws of raising a teenager, but I think I prolly do need two husbands, eventually…or maybe even a husband and a wife? ha!!! who knows? … at least a sidepiece…some seasoned fries w extra ketchup… So, after my kid gets outta high school, I will prolly explore Polyamory and see where that leads my marriage... after all, I wanna grow old w John... and we are all more than capable of having and loving many friends, kids, siblings,…so why not? And, Perhaps our society has the sexual equivalent of an eating disorder? …or perhaps my paper chinette plate is already full? After all, There’s Ketchup on my blouse.
Miss Ellie---you have just written a short, sumptuous essay on marriage, fidelity, passion, and leg shackles.
As one of your opening lines says: "Why should everything rely on one person?"
And then you sneak one of your great lines in: "Even though I do LOVE my person! It is still pervasive; just kinda baked in to the hot air and home cookin’ we all eat and breathe…"
I loved reading it. Especially the end when you plot out your future!
Love your insights - "My virginity and my value were intertwined, and so was my reputation..." and your courage. You've not only taken a good hard look at how you were raised, but continue to explore your many and potentially thrilling alternative lifestyles as well. If you do try polyamory, I hope you will share your thoughts and experiences with us. Human beings are endlessly diverse and fascinating. If we would just allow for and celebrate that instead of judging and trying to control one another, we'd all be a lot happier and probably a lot better entertained.
Aw, nice to meet you! Thank you for giving some grace to my brazen wild heart. When people ask my husband how he can stay w the same woman his whole life, I tell them, John has been w at least 10 different woman. The virginal B cup teen. The 22 year old, C cup take-on-new-york-ingenue-designer. The 30 something D cup wanna make a baby & move to the suburbs? kinda woman, the GG cup, gained 90 pounds pregnant, breast feeding post pard depressed new mother woman, the 40 something DD cup Scarlet woman. Who will he be with next? Humanity ablaze. PS -even my boobs are a force of nature... LOL!
This! When you continue to evolve so does your relationship. I don’t envy you the morphing boobs (can breasts have whiplash?) but otherwise it sounds like your husband has had a wild and educational ride. Please tell me you’ve written about all this. I want to read your saga. Great to meet you too!
Um... no... This is the first time I wrote about it publicly! Ha! The Pandemic changed me... putting a mask on inspired me to take my top off and write... Cuz Guilt thrives in the shadows... when we shine a light on it, it tends to be easier to deal with... and why the hellz are we so ashamed anyways? shame gets us no where... owning our mistakes and questioning our predicament is better than keeping that suitcase of dirty clothes in the back of the closet... I must do laundry today...
Well, keep me posted. I can't wait. I could agree more about guilt though I've learned to tell the difference between guilt and shame: https://youtu.be/5C6UELitWkw
As for what are we so ashamed of? Isn't it really that we're taught to be ashamed of what makes us different - the glorious, one-of-a-kind parts of ourselves that are our gift to this world? This has become one of my biggest concerns. I learned just how destructive our education system is as a result of spending A LOT of time in elementary school classrooms where I heard so many kids tell me that being not perfect means you are dumb, ugly, messed up, creepy, dirty, a jerk, a nerd, and worst of all disgusting.
We teach our kids to be afraid of making mistakes and to believe that grades are the measure of their worth. Having survived that myself (by the skin of my teeth), I know what kind of damage is being done and what kind of adults they grow up to be. Anyway, I've gotten off topic. Really just want to say that I hope you will write about your life. It's gonna be good!
Woa, Whatta good lesson: Shame = I AM BAD.... Guilt = I DID something bad... Shame requires secrecy, silence and judgement... Shame is much deeper than guilt... Empathy is an antidote to shame... (and so are sunlight, and ice cream ). I think I got whiplash from my left (longer) boob smacking myself in the face, doing a 180 here... Well, we can all use more empathy and less shame in the world. May we all rest longer upon the comforting bosom of kindness and compassion, as we take big risks to be who we wanna be...
Wellllll....after dating numerous aholes and being engaged and returning several rings and turning down marriage proposals I married a very darling man 24 years ago. This past winter was rough as I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My husband went to every single one of my doctors visits. He held my hand standing up when I went into the horrible MRI machine for an hour because I am intensely claustrophobic and had to take a xanax to climb into the damn contraption. He held my hand before I went into surgery. He told me he did not care if I had breasts or not( I do) he just wanted me alive. He hugged me when I told him I was scared. He read Queen E. Jean's book What Are Men Good For? And loved it. Prior to Queen E. Jean getting unfairly ousted from Elle, I would read her columns too him and he would ALWAYS SAY...AND I QUOTE...." GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN". We both agreed Elle Magazine was shit and would be banned forever from our home for taking
Away our joy of giggling in bed while reading the Queen's column. I told him before we got engaged that by age 11 I vowed never to change my last name if I got married because it was stupid. He agreed. I told him I hated watching football on weekends and I was nott he type of girl who would do this. He loves football. But he understood. He is 8 years younger than me and still tells me I am beautiful even though I need to lose weight. He said he was a dog man but loved my cats and helped me take in and save the ferals and abandoned kitties we have saved and loved. His love has gotten me through hard times. We sometimes fight. We are not perfect. But he is my best friend. He is stalwart. One of the best things I have ever done is marry Lou. We married 10 months to the day of meeting one another. Eyes rolled. Tongues wagged. But it was meant to be. There are many shitty men out there. However, Lou is a diamond in the ruff of shits. He has one of the best hearts and souls I have ever known on this God forsaken Earth. I don't need to be married. I want to be married. But only ever to Lou.
Jennifer----and this past winter as you were suffering, in pain, terrified and undergoing cancer treatments, you were lifting the spirits of the Ask E. Jean Correspondents!
You sound like an absolute diamond yourself. I loved reading this. You got yourself a Good One, and so did Lou. I hope you have long, silly, healthy, joyful lives together 😍🥰❤️
By the age of 6, I decided marriage was not for me. This was a result of keen observation of the married women in my life . Those same women were the ones who put endless pressure on me to marry…. I happened to find a decent man who makes me laugh, and I love deeply, but I still know,
Aunt Veronica brought a girl to visit and do my hair when I was six. I fell in love with her and decided right then that I would marry her. I wouldn’t stop talking about her, so my parents put on the pressure about how girls did not marry girls. I grew up very confused. As much as I loved Stephen Fleming I wanted to marry the Barry girl from Dorchester.
The whole “master of the house” thing is antiquated although there are way too many of them out there who expect subservient wives. Thankful to have come along when I could divorce the first, who had problems I didn’t comprehend until I was in it. Thankful that I found the freedom to choose a grand passion. Thankful that, in the end, I found a man who is my true partner.
We must use our heads if we seek marriage. All too easy to put one’s Self into a trap by relying on hormones and passion.
Not too many of us Yard Swillers around today, that's for sure. But the Bounders and Football Enthusiasts will always be with us....
The good news is that in 2022 it's MUCH easier to legally uncouple than it was in 1919. In 1919 Wales (which is where this piece dates from), a divorce was only available through an individual act of parliament, which meant that your marriage -- and possible divorce -- would be publicly debated in the House Of Commons. (And only the *extremely* wealthy would have the money to bring this about. And the laws, of course, favoured the men....)
While some of the advice still rings true (I'm looking at *you*, Tailor's Dummies), at least marriage isn't the inescapable legally-binding death-is-the-only-way-out lifetime commitment it was 100 years ago. But then as now, of course, the trick is to FIND a Window Cleaning Coal-Getter in the first place....
Kal! Our meteor! Streeeeeeeeakkkkkkking across our Conflabbian sky like the brightest and gleamingest heavenly body, trailing your tail of laughter and light, and this time, YOU HAVE STREAKED like a dream!!
That's why the first piece of advice was the best one
Eggggzactly, Prom!
And, a strong tame one.
Don't you love it, Kate!
Marissa Rothkopf sent that to me. (You know Marissa....her Substack is THE SECRET LIFE OF COOKIES.
Wow! 🤩 That sounds great!
I feel compelled to write because I have married three times. For me, third time was the charm. Here is the advice I would have given my younger self about men:
1. If they have a temper (even if not directed at you)--run. Men that yell and get really angry are frustrated with themselves and can't articulate what they are feeling so they yell. You may think it's not directed at you (it's only the waiter, the tangled xmas lights, blah blah) but it will be.
2. If they are crazy jealous-- do NOT think it's a compliment. It's because they are so insecure with themselves. And they hate themselves for it-- so they will take it out on you. Run
3. If they don't have at least as strong a work ethic as you-- run. Once again, they will resent you because you make them look lazy. And somehow they think they are getting back at you by being REALLY lazy.
4. If you catch them lying-- call it out immediately the first time. If they do not immediately fess up and have a good explanation (other than a surprise vacay or birthday present, there are no good reasons) Run. I cannot stress this enough.
5. Know thyself. Are you marrying someone because of unfinished family business? Figure out that baggage now!
6. Read-- codependent no more.
7. Read-- if you're in my office it's already too late (by a divorce lawyer).
It took me 2 terrible divorces, then therapy, and reading a lot of books to get to where I am now. I am married to a wonderful, loving partner. If I had followed the above advice (read those two books!) I would not have needed to go thru the 2 divorces that drained all my savings.
Route66! Well, GAL! Your essay should go at the
top right along with Suffragette's. It is wise, concise, and
chock full of truth.
Thank you.
I just thought I would add this note after reading it a second time this morning (before the hearing.)
Thanks! I'm gearing up for the hearing myself.
Love it, Route66 Gal!!
Your 1. point, the anger issue, is what I missed. The first time I became aware of it was when he got angry at his domino partner and sent the table with the dominoes clattering on the tile floor. I thought he was going to hit the man. I burst into tears when I witnessed it. I was 20 and highly pregnant. It took me 15 more years to utter the D word, and that’s when the violence was directed against me as I knew it would be. But I got out. Twenty years after my divorce, I broke down and, at 56, married my present husband. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary. I don’t want to imagine my life without him.
Barbara! This would make a SPECTACULAR Hallmark movie. And it would star some one like Diane Keaton.
And I am so happy that you are happy!
I always seem to confuse Violent Outbursts with “Passion”. I love being married but I do, genuinely, wish I could simultaneously have a handful more husbands.
Right? Just a handful, Daria---three or four husbands.....one to cook, one to run errands, one to take care of the kids, one to walk the dogs, one to earn the money, one to give you backrubs!!
Listen: I am needy and difficult. It Takes A Village.
You should do a podcast, Daria!
GIRLFRIEND! I do a podcast! There are about 30 free episodes @radiofreedaria, then I have tons at www.patreon.com/radiofreedaria (I’m cheap, like 5 bucks I think)
OHHHHH! Daria! This is great! I signed up, of course!!!
@Daria, curious as to why you wish you could have more. I really wish I didn't have my first two.
I guess because: frankly, I believe every woman DESERVES multiple husbands. That just flat out makes more sense to me that history’s usual polygamy. Also, I think it’s unfair to expect one person to be our Be-All. I love my Real Husband. But I’d also like a handyman husband, one that loves going to plays and reading books, one that is a 9 to 5 type A, etc. And although I currently, truly, have no complaints in the sex department…I would not mind having sex with all of them. Submissive with one, goofy with another, etc.
Ha! Daria!
We think alike!
Plus I like cooking for a crowd 😂😂
I like eating for a crowd.
If ever I am passing through town, you gotta haul out the dishes, Daria!
OH YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will serve you a million little perfect things and we’ll toast repeatedly and rambunctiously.
I’m just amazed that you kept trying!
Not that the conflab needs a man’s opinion, but hell no, you don’t need a husband.
Just find someone who makes you laugh, makes you think, helps around the living space you are co-habituating in, who likes to do the horizontal rumba (Yes, I’m trying to be PG here, you gutter minded FREAKS..LOL), and is a contributing partner in everything.
Someone you can dress up to take to Broadway, or dress down to get BBQ and beer. Someone who knows the rare times when it’s ok to use their outside voice inside. Someone who wants to be the spoon or the spoonee. Who can be the rock to build the foundation on, and be the roll with it because that is how the chaos of a post TFG 21st century seems to be going.
Most of all, be your own bestie. Men suck. We are good at a few things, and look nice in a tailored three piece suit, but in general, most of us suck the chrome off a trailer hitch.
Sorry to be so serious, conflab! If he can’t make you laugh, he’s a one night stand.
SEAN! Hail!
I am giving you a loud, enthusiastic sitting ovation, sir!!
I have been honored by the most Holy E. Jean.
I can now die, my life fulfilled. Lol
Thé concept is outdated but I went for it and married the guy anyway. We don’t plan on having kids and are both educated and make our own moola, so there’s no reason to get hitched but here we are. I would do it again, even after 15 years of ups and downs. He’s smart, kind, giving, patient, funny, faithful, and most importantly, he loves the hell out of me. And he still has a magnificent head of hair and abs, but now I’m just bragging. Truly one of the only people I can be my absolute self with and I’m still physically attracted to him after all these years. So if you can find one like mine, I say go for it. Otherwise? Who needs ‘em?
Krissy, brag away, woman! I loved every word, especially your romantic last three lines:
"So if you can find one like mine, I say go for it. Otherwise? Who needs ‘em?"
I have cats and much prefer them to lying cheating and disrespectful men. At my age most men are looking from what someone said “ either a nurse or a purse”. I would provide neither being a single woman who supports herself and paid for many years of formal education.
Dr. Denise!
Plus a cat is generally wittier than a husband,
LMAO - truth!
Right there with you. And my male cats are neutered. Might make the human males more appealing if they were.
Har!
Jena! I loved that you dropped by the podcast last night! Means a lot to me!
My male cat is also neutered, but he still humps my bathrobe every night. Oh well, better than my leg!
Ahhhhh, the Bathrobe Romeo!!!
Yes to the cats, and no to the nurse or purse. 🙄 We must be of similar maturity.
Or similar brilliance . . . .
Yes well seasoned in life!!
Well seasoned hell - I’m downright spicy!
Love this topic! Married at 21 and my husband was a great father, lover and companion. He turned to alcohol to deal with the stresses of life! Changed his personality became a brute, lazy and an asshole. I left and have never found one worthy. I decided long ago that there are few men worth the sacrifice of being married. Marriage is highly overrated. The only benefit is two wonderful children now adults.
My last husband was The Best. Even though I'm a widow now, I still feel married to him.
Ahhh, Rita!
Salute!
Me too! I was super lucky, and I still wear my ring after nine years. ❤️
Me, 'Taboo'.
My husband and I both have our faults, but we bear witness to each other’s lives in a way that I find very nice. We are self-aware of our flaws to a degree that we both think we got the better deal in the marriage. Even though my marriage has worked out (well, for the last 18 years; who knows what’s ahead), my advice is buyer beware.
Katie! Such wise and stirring words!!
Nice Katie. So there are a few good ones out there ;-)
Okay, to start, I'm assuming when we're talking about husbands we're talking about cismen or transmen to whom we are legally married. I had one of those for 10 years, with three and a half years of mostly cohabitating before that, and I will say NOPE, don't need another one of them. Perhaps the whole heterosexual nuclear family model made some kind of sense on a theoretical level to aid the raising of small children and the collective purchasing of property, but, for me anyway, it was an incredibly stressful, ill-fitting suit that was hell to get out of and I never want to try and squeeze into again.
Also, we were totally trauma-bonded, which combined with the fact that he's a narcissistic prick, doomed the whole enterprise from the start. When I think of his current wife these days I just think, Good luck with that, sister. Feh.
At this point in my life I own my own house (with considerable assistance on the front end from my parents, to be sure) and my children are grown, so what ever would be the point? I will not ever combine finances with someone again, I don't want to cohabitate, and I need no help raising my children. I don't need a husband to have love or great sex or companionship, which is a great comfort to me. Thank you, Second Wave Feminism!
Now, I do have a dear friend who has been with her now-husband for nearly 30 years. They decided to get legally married about 10 years ago simply because they do own property together and we are all getting older and they didn't want there to be any confusion about having access to each other in the hospital or whichever of them dies first what would happen to their collective assets. This makes a lot of practical sense, I'll admit. If my current companion and I stay together for the long haul I could see making a similar decision eventually, but we'll still always live separately and keep separate finances. Not only will that preserve my sanity, it will strike that balance between independence and intimacy that protects desire, and desire is most of why I want to be in a long-term commitment anyway. For me, sex is better with someone deeply known.
I remember watching an interview with Dixie Carter years ago, who got married for the first time in her forties to Hal Holbrook (handsome devil). When asked why she chose to wait so long to get married she responded, "It takes a damn good man to beat no man at all." I have never forgotten that, and swear by it as a general rule. Still, I don't think legal marriage is a prerequisite to having a damn good man, and based on my own experience, would not recommend it.
P.S. I LOVE this Dixie Carter quote!
I hope you include this essay in your book, Asha! It's a marvel!
Well, he'll be in there, that's for sure. That being my ex-husband. And all of his inane, romantic fantasies. The new companion will likely also feature-- in all his delightful, kinky glory, because goddamn if he doesn't make for good copy. :)
LOL can't wait.
Ohhhh..... I promised my banker I wouldn’t get married again!
Maureen, it is YOUR money!!!
You worked for it! You earned it! Don't let some nincompoop banker tell you what to do!!
You are so brilliant! xxxxx
YOU'RE the one who went to Harvard, Maureen!
E. Jean, you are brilliant you know. I really mean that. Your world view and strength are most remarkable. That’s why I’m here.
Thank you, dear Maureen!
I agree!
Longer!
Thank you.
I ordered groceries today, and I’m sitting here waiting for the delivery with Fitbit as I suddenly realize that the item that caused me to order more groceries was the one thing I forgot to put on the list: 🧻 TP.
What was item? Was it banana cream pie? Cuz when you DO remember to order it, I would like a big slice!
I LOVE banana cream pie, and I am so pleased you do as well! I will save the most biggest-hugest slice for you, but you'd better beat my granddaughter Jacq arriving soon from her home in Denmark. She saw my message online and bought tickets to visit immediately!
OOOO! She has QUITE a treat in store!
Banana Cream Pie! AND Fitbit!
Life y’know?
My locksmith told me to stop loving men and giving them my key. He said it’s that or just keep him on retainer.
O!!!!
Mary!!
Love you!
Oh HELL NO! Not now, not ever, not even for a billion bucks.
I came damn close - after torturing myself for 8 long years with a man who not only couldn't keep his equipment in his pants - but then three months before out wedding announced he had been sleeping with a man and couldn't give him up.
Since then, I have never been tempted. With the very rare exception, men are exactly as the opening to your post stated, "lazy, selfish, thoughtless, lying, drunken, clumsy, heavy-footed, rough, brutes..." To be fair, that's how most are raised and then systematically taught to behave in school. Plus, most are ruled by their sex drive, which prompts them to do all sorts of unkind, selfish, stupid, and abusive things. So no.
I have, of course, been pleasantly surprised by the tales told by my fellow Conflabbians, including the men. Kal, you give me hope ;-) But what continues to astound me is why so many women still fall for the Other BIG Lie - i.e. that they can and should fine a prince charming and live happily every after - and its related falsehood - that they have to look and behave a particular way to land one.
First of all, most happily ever after scenarios involve childbirth - which is not only unpleasant but can kill you - and second, marriage still involves financial commitments that are not always easy to break.
So sorry Auntie E. I know that this obsession with obtaining husbands gives advice columnists plenty of work but I'm not going there. HUGS!
Uh-oh! We've roused the She-Bear!!! And I love every word of your rant, Jena!
Hah! Well it's a pet peeve of mine to be honest. Sorry to roar all in caps - lol.
Oh my God Jena. Thank God you found out before actually marrying that shit. Jesus.
Yes he was a piece of work. The sad thing looking back was he had me convinced there was something wrong with me. I had plenty of things I needed to heal, but not wanting him to screw around and to devote quality time to me wasn’t one of them.
It seems to me that almost every woman( very strong wonderful smart women such as yourself) has a story line in their life which includes a flaming damaging asshole men with narcisstic or sociopathic tendencies that have tried to attempt to continually gaslight and control us. God knows I had my share of them. I am very sorry you went through that horror show. The damage is cumulative. Narcissists love empathic souls such as yours. We must protect ourselves from these vampires.
Warm and supportive (and fighting) words! Thank you, Jennifer!
Of course🙏🏻💗🙏🏻
Wish it wasn't true, but then again we have become masters of bullshit detection. Which is why I can't imagine EVER wanting a husband - lol.
I tootally understand. Why ruin your peace of mind at this point? I sure wouldn't. 💗
I'm uncertain if my experience is of value, since I'm fairly sure we're weird. My husband & I met in high school & got married at 18. We did everything wrong according to an article I read on '5 Main Reason Why Marriages Don't Work': 1) Married too young; 2) Different ethnic backgrounds (he's Mexican, I'm Norwegian); 3) Different religions (he was raised Catholic, I became an atheist at age 14); 4) having kids too soon (our daughter was born after 8.5 months); & 5) Financial issues (boy, did we have 'em). We made it regardless & celebrated 60 years in January. We made it because we're partners, we have each others' backs, & - what's most important - we make sure, when we have problems, we both are in a space where we can listen to the other & truly understand what is being said. It's okay to tell each other we can't talk right now since we are united in trying to resolve our issues. Neither gets hurt or huffy, if we need to wait for the right time, because we know there are times when we just can't resolve issues, where solutions aren't likely, & we're fine with that. But we also know some problems don't age well, so we plan on when we"ll 'fix' it. That we still love each other, that there's still lust, & joy, & kindness towards each other are facts. We are very lucky people. I, for one, do need my husband & (it may seem unnatural), I love my spouse more that my children. Like I wrote, we're weird.
Alecia!
This is as good a marriage manual as I have ever read!
Coming from you, that's a huge compliment, thank you. I think we mostly learned that a good marriage is based on commitment to like, to love & to listen, & don't let the small stuff get in the way.
I've spent 51 weirdly wonderful years with the same guy. I salute your weirdness!
Gayle!
No wonder you are so excellent at answering some of the problems that come in to Ask E. Jean!!
51 wonderful years! How Fantastic!
Not weird! Blessed and Lucky!
Trained from birth in the deep south to be chaste and coy, and to find and marry the perfect husband, at age 18, that’s exactly what I did. ~Except pobody's nerfect! Im not, and neither is my husband! … AND… that very system of social conditioning is causing unspeakable amounts of depression, repression, and stunted human growth! …why should everything rely on one person? It took me twenty five years to swallow that, and I am still choking on it! -- - Even though I do LOVE my person! It is still pervasive; just kinda baked in to the hot air and home cookin’ we all eat and breathe…
As a young girl, in an ultraconservative patriarical household, My virginity and my value were intertwined, and so was my reputation to that of my mother and sister...brother and father... Unlike the gals in my hometown whom married their high school sweetheart, I got my "MRS degree," and I married my college love. Today, I am 48 and Its been 30 years since our first date... John is pretty close to an ideal partner... he still tells great jokes, makes great paintings, a great lasagne and he still knows how to romance. But, at age 43, I was feeling a few lumpy grudges (why didn’t I have that second kid?) and some big mid life regret at never having "played the field" .... but why?? ...I had a husband I adored, a darling daughter, career, a home and a dog, and all that ... but still it was a naggin' me.... I didnt have the guts or the will to leave all that, fer naught...to turn over the apple cart my darling prize red delicious baby daughter apple was bein’ raised in,…so I decided to just stay in the shoes I was wearin’… But I still went offa the path, and then offa the deep end, and I had an affair.. and.. gulp...I fell in love again.... It was wonderful and terrible... like drowning and flying at the same time.. It was not a mid life crisis as much as it was a mid life awakening. I discovered... Yes, I could love w two people at the same time...It was wild and wronge. I betrayed my spouse and my family, but I felt so alive and the passion was addictive... Eventually, The other man wanted me all to himself, and couldn't stand it, so he left me heart broken. It was my first time having a broken heart. I finally told my husband, and we slowly glued back the chipped vase of our love back together…and we have our darling daughter rose blooming inside of it… and our 30 plus years history together… a lifetime of inside jokes, and life experience…and we look forward to 30 more... but I still miss my love affair partner… however, I love my husband more. Because those high fires of passion I felt with that man couldn’t hold a candle to the long burning flame of creativity and companionship and family I share w John… Do I regret the love affair? No… I cant. It was one of the most pivotal memorable experiences of my life that I will never forget… I still think about him all the time… But I never wanna hurt my husband like that again… Now, I am in the throws of raising a teenager, but I think I prolly do need two husbands, eventually…or maybe even a husband and a wife? ha!!! who knows? … at least a sidepiece…some seasoned fries w extra ketchup… So, after my kid gets outta high school, I will prolly explore Polyamory and see where that leads my marriage... after all, I wanna grow old w John... and we are all more than capable of having and loving many friends, kids, siblings,…so why not? And, Perhaps our society has the sexual equivalent of an eating disorder? …or perhaps my paper chinette plate is already full? After all, There’s Ketchup on my blouse.
I want to answer you, Miss Ellie, but first I have to go write the script for tonight's podcast-----but I was enthralled with your essay!
Enthralled? I do declare... God help me be a good wife!
Miss Ellie---you have just written a short, sumptuous essay on marriage, fidelity, passion, and leg shackles.
As one of your opening lines says: "Why should everything rely on one person?"
And then you sneak one of your great lines in: "Even though I do LOVE my person! It is still pervasive; just kinda baked in to the hot air and home cookin’ we all eat and breathe…"
I loved reading it. Especially the end when you plot out your future!
Please, PLEASE, write a book!!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Wowza! This is Epic!
Just a story from a normal red-blooded woman. - THAT kinda woman.
The very best kind ;-)
The CONFLAB strikes again - lol
Love your insights - "My virginity and my value were intertwined, and so was my reputation..." and your courage. You've not only taken a good hard look at how you were raised, but continue to explore your many and potentially thrilling alternative lifestyles as well. If you do try polyamory, I hope you will share your thoughts and experiences with us. Human beings are endlessly diverse and fascinating. If we would just allow for and celebrate that instead of judging and trying to control one another, we'd all be a lot happier and probably a lot better entertained.
You are wonderful. Hugs!
Aw, nice to meet you! Thank you for giving some grace to my brazen wild heart. When people ask my husband how he can stay w the same woman his whole life, I tell them, John has been w at least 10 different woman. The virginal B cup teen. The 22 year old, C cup take-on-new-york-ingenue-designer. The 30 something D cup wanna make a baby & move to the suburbs? kinda woman, the GG cup, gained 90 pounds pregnant, breast feeding post pard depressed new mother woman, the 40 something DD cup Scarlet woman. Who will he be with next? Humanity ablaze. PS -even my boobs are a force of nature... LOL!
This! When you continue to evolve so does your relationship. I don’t envy you the morphing boobs (can breasts have whiplash?) but otherwise it sounds like your husband has had a wild and educational ride. Please tell me you’ve written about all this. I want to read your saga. Great to meet you too!
Um... no... This is the first time I wrote about it publicly! Ha! The Pandemic changed me... putting a mask on inspired me to take my top off and write... Cuz Guilt thrives in the shadows... when we shine a light on it, it tends to be easier to deal with... and why the hellz are we so ashamed anyways? shame gets us no where... owning our mistakes and questioning our predicament is better than keeping that suitcase of dirty clothes in the back of the closet... I must do laundry today...
Well, keep me posted. I can't wait. I could agree more about guilt though I've learned to tell the difference between guilt and shame: https://youtu.be/5C6UELitWkw
As for what are we so ashamed of? Isn't it really that we're taught to be ashamed of what makes us different - the glorious, one-of-a-kind parts of ourselves that are our gift to this world? This has become one of my biggest concerns. I learned just how destructive our education system is as a result of spending A LOT of time in elementary school classrooms where I heard so many kids tell me that being not perfect means you are dumb, ugly, messed up, creepy, dirty, a jerk, a nerd, and worst of all disgusting.
We teach our kids to be afraid of making mistakes and to believe that grades are the measure of their worth. Having survived that myself (by the skin of my teeth), I know what kind of damage is being done and what kind of adults they grow up to be. Anyway, I've gotten off topic. Really just want to say that I hope you will write about your life. It's gonna be good!
Woa, Whatta good lesson: Shame = I AM BAD.... Guilt = I DID something bad... Shame requires secrecy, silence and judgement... Shame is much deeper than guilt... Empathy is an antidote to shame... (and so are sunlight, and ice cream ). I think I got whiplash from my left (longer) boob smacking myself in the face, doing a 180 here... Well, we can all use more empathy and less shame in the world. May we all rest longer upon the comforting bosom of kindness and compassion, as we take big risks to be who we wanna be...
My Gawd! MISS ELLIE!!!! This essay is just getting better and better and richer and deeper. Just when I think it can't be improved, you add a dazzler!
Wellllll....after dating numerous aholes and being engaged and returning several rings and turning down marriage proposals I married a very darling man 24 years ago. This past winter was rough as I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My husband went to every single one of my doctors visits. He held my hand standing up when I went into the horrible MRI machine for an hour because I am intensely claustrophobic and had to take a xanax to climb into the damn contraption. He held my hand before I went into surgery. He told me he did not care if I had breasts or not( I do) he just wanted me alive. He hugged me when I told him I was scared. He read Queen E. Jean's book What Are Men Good For? And loved it. Prior to Queen E. Jean getting unfairly ousted from Elle, I would read her columns too him and he would ALWAYS SAY...AND I QUOTE...." GOD I LOVE THAT WOMAN". We both agreed Elle Magazine was shit and would be banned forever from our home for taking
Away our joy of giggling in bed while reading the Queen's column. I told him before we got engaged that by age 11 I vowed never to change my last name if I got married because it was stupid. He agreed. I told him I hated watching football on weekends and I was nott he type of girl who would do this. He loves football. But he understood. He is 8 years younger than me and still tells me I am beautiful even though I need to lose weight. He said he was a dog man but loved my cats and helped me take in and save the ferals and abandoned kitties we have saved and loved. His love has gotten me through hard times. We sometimes fight. We are not perfect. But he is my best friend. He is stalwart. One of the best things I have ever done is marry Lou. We married 10 months to the day of meeting one another. Eyes rolled. Tongues wagged. But it was meant to be. There are many shitty men out there. However, Lou is a diamond in the ruff of shits. He has one of the best hearts and souls I have ever known on this God forsaken Earth. I don't need to be married. I want to be married. But only ever to Lou.
Jennifer----and this past winter as you were suffering, in pain, terrified and undergoing cancer treatments, you were lifting the spirits of the Ask E. Jean Correspondents!
And tell your darling husband my new favorite tune is......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dfuVLMwiMA
And, Jennifer? I will cherish this little essay of yours as long as I exist.
Huge love sent to you E. Jean Carroll. We cherish you💗
You sound like an absolute diamond yourself. I loved reading this. You got yourself a Good One, and so did Lou. I hope you have long, silly, healthy, joyful lives together 😍🥰❤️
Oh thank you! 🤗🤗
I love this, Jennifer and its quite beautiful set of thoughts regarding relationships.
Thank you Maureen...sometimes finding good people to partner with is a literal crap shoot. 💗🤗
Indeed!
By the age of 6, I decided marriage was not for me. This was a result of keen observation of the married women in my life . Those same women were the ones who put endless pressure on me to marry…. I happened to find a decent man who makes me laugh, and I love deeply, but I still know,
6 year old me was not wrong….
We are astonishingly smart at six! Our observational powers are at their zenith, Dominique!
Aunt Veronica brought a girl to visit and do my hair when I was six. I fell in love with her and decided right then that I would marry her. I wouldn’t stop talking about her, so my parents put on the pressure about how girls did not marry girls. I grew up very confused. As much as I loved Stephen Fleming I wanted to marry the Barry girl from Dorchester.
What a provocative topic, Auntie E!
The whole “master of the house” thing is antiquated although there are way too many of them out there who expect subservient wives. Thankful to have come along when I could divorce the first, who had problems I didn’t comprehend until I was in it. Thankful that I found the freedom to choose a grand passion. Thankful that, in the end, I found a man who is my true partner.
We must use our heads if we seek marriage. All too easy to put one’s Self into a trap by relying on hormones and passion.
Longer! Excellent advice! Gotta use the head and the heart!!
Good morning!